EP86 Interview With Kate Nicolle, Relationship Counsellor
In this podcast episode, Kate Nicolle, a qualified relationship counsellor, shares insights on how portrait photographers can use understanding of couple and family dynamics to improve client experiences. By recognizing body language and communication patterns, photographers can help diffuse tensions during sessions and create more enjoyable, memorable portraits. It turns out the psychology of portrait photography can be really useful!
I don’t know quite what inspired me for this podcast, but I thought it would be interesting (and so it proved to be) to invite someone onto the podcast that really does understand relationships and the language that people use.
Every day in a portrait photography business, we’re facing families and couples, watching their behaviour, listening to their conversations and creating beautiful images of them and their loved ones. I wondered if there were techniques we could use to improve their experience – in particular, ways of diffusing the natural tensions that are present when a family arrives for a portrait session.
We mention the portrait session that Kate and her friends, Karen and Rachel, had a few years ago (and the picture that now hangs in her downstairs loo!) If you’re curious, a short blog about this can be found here on my portrait website.
If you’d like to see more of what Kate is involved in, her website can be found at www.katenicolle-happierrelationships.co.uk and she is, truly, one of the nicest, smartest people you could meet!
NOTE! If you would like a virtual relationship counselling session, Kate has very kindly offered a 20% discount to anyone who mentions this podcast!
Enjoy!
Transcript:
Paul: [00:00:00] One of the things about running a portrait photography business is you spend an awful lot of time in the company of couples and families, and you hear the way they speak, you see the way they t- they treat each other, and you see the stresses and strains that exist within each and every family unit.
And of course, our job as portrait photographers is to try and overcome all of those little foibles of life and try and create a vibrant, exciting, enjoyable set of memories and convert those into pictures. In this interview, I bring in someone who specializes in the language of relationships and talk to her about the kinds of things that we as photographers can do to improve our clients’ experience.
I’m Paul, and this is the Mastering Portrait Photography Podcast.[00:01:00]
So I don’t really know quite why I thought of this, but at some point it must have occurred to me that given the sheer number of families and couples that each of us face in a family portrait photography business, it might be interesting to talk to someone who specializes in the language, in the words and the body language, in the behaviors of couples to see if there are any useful little nuggets that we could apply when we’re working with our clients here in the studio.
Uh, as it happens, as it happens, one of my clients is such a specialist, and on top of that, she’s one of the world’s nicest people. So Kate Nicole is a relationship counselor and an educator, and she works with couples and families all of the time And so I brought her in partly because of her specialisms.
Kate is forever [00:02:00] on stage talking about this stuff. She trains other relationship counselors, um, and she’s completely committed to using language to unlock the stresses and strains of relationships, but that’s not really the main reason to bring someone on the podcast. The main reason to bring someone on the podcast is I thought it would be fun.
I thought I’d learn something, and I thought I would enjoy the conversation. And of course, so it proved to be. I mean, it helps that Kate is a client of mine. I’ve known her for years, and whenever we bump into each other, it really is a case of our loved ones lose us for a couple of hours because we just sit and chat and just enjoy the things we talk about.
She truly is one of life’s nice people. Anyway, from a podcast point of view, of course, I set out first by asking her to describe a little about herself.
Kate: So I do sort of, uh, a couple of different things. Um, I, um, have my own practice where I, um, work with couples or just actually sometimes family [00:03:00] relationships where, um, people are, uh, not having a great time.
Paul: Right.
Kate: And they are looking to, um, bring some, um, resolution into their relationship. So, um- What do you mean
Paul: by resolution?
Kate: Yeah. Resolution is, well, would… Some people come, uh, wanting you to adjudicate their conflict. Right. When people come for couple counseling- So sort of like ACAS
Paul: for marriage …
Kate: it’s, yeah.
It’s kind of like, right, uh, we’re going and I’m telling this lady all the stuff that you do, and she’s definitely gonna be telling you off. Um, that’s sometimes the vein in which people
Paul: come. And how… That’s intriguing. How does that pan typically?
Kate: Um, uh, they very quickly realize that it’s not the game Right
which is why I say resolution, because it’s all about helping people find a solution to the, the often the, the poor communication habits that they’ve created over [00:04:00] whatever amount of time. Um, so it’s about… It’s not about fixing people’s relationships, it’s about helping them to recognize why they’ve gone the way that they’ve gone and, and how they might learn to, um, to recognize that and recognize when it’s happening again and, and, and learn how to fix it for themselves.
Paul: So- And what proportion of the relationship spoils down to communication issues more than anything else?
Kate: D- d- all of them A- a- all of them, all of them. Um, and, and that’s why, uh, the other part of my job is I train frontline practitioners who work with vulnerable families. Right. So social workers, health visitors, I train them to have these conversations with their families because, you know, family relationships, as everybody listening to this will know, uh, even the closest, most loving families, you know, it’s hard.
Relationships are [00:05:00] difficult. Um, and sometimes situations like lockdown, you know, put intense pressure. And as soon as … Stress is a relationship kryptonite, so as soon as we have stress in a relationship, it tests how we as a unit, be that a family or a couple, how we adapt together to be able to deal with the situation that we find ourselves in.
Paul: Why does stress compound a problem as opposed to- Yeah, I g- I guess what, the question I’m trying to drill to, I’m wording it very badly, is in a stressful situation, the people you’re closest to would seem to me the people you need the most support, with the most dialogue with, they’re your team.
Kate: Yeah.
Paul: And yet I know historically, and also, I mean, you know, I recognize that in my own situations.
Yeah. Why is it that stress, instead of triggering like a football team, they get together and get closer, why in a loving relationship, why does it [00:06:00] seem to trigger a kind of tearing or, or pressure- Mm-hmm … within the relationship? Why is the difference?
Kate: Um, often because if you, especially if you take a couple relationship, so you turned up to the beginning of that relationship with all your past experiences with you.
So like your own baggage, we all have baggage that we’ve brought with us. Some of it makes you more vulnerable, and some of it makes you more resilient. So you, you bring with you the way you were parented, the culture you’ve been brought up in, um, you know, all your life experiences. The other person brings theirs, and they don’t, they don’t match.
Paul: Right.
Kate: So we’re having to work out, okay, I’ve chosen you, you’ve chosen me. That’s what makes it complicated because, because we don’t start a relationship a- as a blank piece of paper- Right … that we then write on together-
Paul: Yeah …
Kate: and work out how we’re going to meet each other’s needs when we [00:07:00] get stressful.
We’ve brought a- our stuff with us, and often we don’t recognize that it’s a problem until we’re put under stress. So until we’re in a situation like lockdown, lots of new relationships will have been tootling along quite fine, thanks very much. Oh, let’s move in with each other. Oh, now we’re three months in this house together, just the two of us.
That is, you know, that’s the ultimate- I take it this
Paul: is what you’re
Kate: seeing at the moment. Yeah. Well, yeah, because b- you very quickly find out, uh, things about the other person that even they didn’t know made them vulnerable.
Paul: Yeah.
Kate: So as soon as we expose people’s vulnerabilities, then we’ve really got to work hard to, to meet, to be the partner that meets that person’s emotional needs.
Um, and that’s, you know, we’re learning that on the job.
Paul: Yeah.
Kate: Um, so I think that’s, that, that’s why- Often the people that we love the most, we maybe [00:08:00] struggle the most with because we’ve kind of made an assumption that, “Well, you, you love me, so you should know that I’m finding this stressful.” But that, and
Paul: I- Right.
That, that old, “If you loved me, you’d know.”
Kate: Yeah. Like, what? I hear that all the time. I was like, “If I have a pound for every time I heard that.” Yeah. But that’s such an unfair… It’s, it’s something that we do because we don’t really, I don’t want to explain to you all my vulnerabilities. I’d just like you to just know them.
Paul: Yeah. ‘
Kate: Cause it’s a bit painful for me to spell them out, and I’ve got lots of feelings attached to them. So can we just say that you know them, and I know them, and, uh, mostly let’s try and ignore them. But you can’t when it gets stressful, so.
Paul: That’s curious, isn’t it? So i- in, y- you kind of, you, you, you arrive with all this a priori, this, this pre-built information, and you assume you’ve shared it.
Kate: Yeah.
Paul: So how do you go about unlocking that? [00:09:00]
Kate: Um, w- it’s a really important thing to do, and it’s often why people find having something like relationship coaching helpful because it’s not something … You don’t say, “Saturday night, shall we, shall we explore each other’s vulnerabilities?” Uh, no. Let’s watch Strictly, actually.
Yeah. Um, I’m not doing that ’cause I don’t … You know, it’s a can of worms that I’ve no idea, once I go there, I don’t know how that’s gonna feel, and I might not be able to put them all back in the can, all those crazy worms. So, so, so what, what I try and do with people is help them in their own ti- in their own steam, help them to just think about, you know, why is it that you react every time your partner goes out, and you said, “Text me when you get there”, and then they don’t text you when they get [00:10:00] there, and you totally lose it.
What, what’s that about? So why … That, that’s maybe- Yeah … to other people a little bit unreasonable. W- what … And you maybe recognize, “I have an unreasonable reaction to that.” So what is that about then? So what, what are you feeling in that moment when the person doesn’t do what you’ve asked them to do? So it sounds all sort of a bit deep and meaningful and a bit scary of, oh, you know, it’s, it’s gonna be something to do with your childhood.
Actually, it’s more just about w- where’s your behavior coming from? What thoughts and feelings does it spark in you when that person behaves the way that they do? So it’s, it’s more simple than people imagine to, to, to sort of start to un-
Paul: Yeah,
Kate: yeah … fold it. It is just recognizing, when you do that, I feel this, and so then I respond the way that I respond.
You get cross with me, I get cross with you, and we have an argument [00:11:00] unnecessarily often.
Paul: So is it- I mean, for all those people out there listening to this, and also me out of curiosity- … ’cause I know there’s, there’s moments when I’ll get frustrated with- Sure … with stuff. I mean, I run a business with my wife and with Michelle.
Um, and of course, I go home and I have a family life and, you know, two grown-up kids. Or, say, Jake’s just gone to uni, so Harry’s back at home as well. Um, I can feel myself get cross with stuff.
Kate: Yeah.
Paul: And I know people around me get cross with me about stuff, which I find, frankly, illogical and unreasonable.
But when I’m cross, of course, I have a valid point. It’s valid. But if, the minute I feel cross, are there ways in which I can kind of s- I, I don’t have the luxury of being able to sit down with a counselor
Kate: Yeah, yeah. A
Paul: couple of days a week and say, “I think we need to talk about this.”
Kate: Yeah.
Paul: So in my head, can I unravel that kind of s- Is it possible to self- Yeah
not analyze as such, I don’t need to be that deep, but, uh, I mean, it, are there tricks that you can use to help alleviate those kinds of pressure points?
Kate: A- absolutely. And it, it really, it’s recognizing [00:12:00] this is happening. I’m getting, all of you have pressed my buttons, um, and I’m feeling irritated, and I c- I can f- I can feel the moment- Yeah
coming where I’m just gonna shout at everybody and, and storm out- Yeah … in a drama huff. Uh, I don’t want to do that, so it, it’s like pressing pause and say, “So w- why am I feeling irrationally,” uh-
Paul: Question, before we go any further, how do I know I’m being irrational as opposed to logical? ‘Cause every bone in my body will be saying, I have a logical, I have a, a, a logical stress about this situation.
Yeah. It’s completely logical. It makes sense to me. How do I know I’m being irrational as opposed to rational?
Kate: Um-
Paul: Except for the fact that I’m cross, in which case, of course I must be crazy So,
Kate: yeah. So sort of answering that, but not answering that.
Paul: Thanks.
Kate: Yeah. What, [00:13:00] what, what I say to people, a really good trick to use, and it’s not a trick actually, it’s just a really useful life skill, and teach it to your children because once you, once you know how to use this, it, it really changes the way you communicate with other people.
So often in that moment where you’re thinking, “Hmm, I’m, I’m on the edge of I’m gonna lose my rag here,” uh, often the words that we say are you. So, “You didn’t put the bins out. I knew you wouldn’t do that. You did that last week.”
Paul: Yeah. ”
Kate: You didn’t fill the dishwasher. You know, it’s really selfish now, I have to mention this all the time.”
Paul: Are you quoting from your home life? Or is this… Are
Kate: you giving us proper examples here? You know, but we’ve all been there. You know, that, that, that what we do is go into critical mode.
Paul: Yeah.
Kate: So I’m gonna criticize, I’m cross, and, uh, it, and I’m more likely to blame everyone else for [00:14:00] why I’m wound up than, than re- than it being my fault.
Paul: Yeah.
Kate: So I’m gonna use you in what I say. Yeah. You know, “You’re really getting on my nerves.”
Paul: Which is essentially finger-pointing, but in
Kate: language. Yeah, exactly that. Exactly that. And as soon as we do the finger-pointing- Yeah … that, that makes us feel a bit better, ’cause we’ve gone, “Oh, you’re all useless,” you know?
“If only you were a bit more like me, this would be going better,” is what we’re really thinking, really. Um, so what I try and help my clients to recognize is if you speak from I- Then you own that moment. So if you’re about to lose it, it’s helpful to think to yourself, “I wanna say something because actually I feel like everyone’s taking the mick because they’ve all cooked dinner and they’ve left pots and pans everywhere, haven’t filled the dishwasher.
You know, come on now, this is, you know-” Well, now you’re talking about my family. Yeah, yeah. You know, we, we, we, we all have th- those m- moments. [00:15:00] So rather than go storming into the sitting room and go, you know, “You’re all really winding me up now, you this, you that, you the other,” if you can think to say, “Right, what about this is not okay for me?
So I’m feeling like everyone takes me for granted because I think they’ve all gone to watch telly because they know that I’ll get so annoyed that the kitchen is messy, I’ll tidy it myself. So I’m feeling like they’re, they’re taking me for granted.” So, so if you can
think, “Well, I w- I need to communicate the feeling that I am feeling that everyone’s taking me for granted and taking advantage of me, that’s where I am, so that’s what I need to communicate.” Rather than, “You’re all lazy, and you’re taking the Mickey,” that just gets, provokes a defensive response. Go in with, “Guys, I just need you to know that I’m, that I’m feeling a bit irritated this evening ’cause it feels like you’re taking for [00:16:00] granted that you can just watch Netflix while I tidy up what’s gone on in the kitchen.”
You’re much more likely for everyone to think, “Oh, God, you know, actually, he’s right, you know, a- and I feel bad.” They’re more likely to get up off the sofa and go and clear up than if you storm in and accuse everyone of being lazy and etc., etc. So, so it’s, it’s, it’s about thinking about what, what, what is it that I feel in this moment, and how am I gonna share that with everyone else?
Because just giving y- your this, that, and the other is like p- pouring petrol on the fire.
Paul: Yeah. So I, I see how that would help with the reaction from those you’re dealing with.
Kate: Yeah.
Paul: How do I diffuse … See, I, I recognize quite quickly when I’m going. How do I diffuse that component of it? Because if I’m wound up and cross-
Kate: Yeah
Paul: I can still inject a lot [00:17:00] of venom into the word I.
Kate: Yeah, yeah.
Paul: How do I take the heat out
Kate: of that? I guess you’re halfway there in that you recognize that you do it. You know, if, if i- that’s half of the challenge is recognizing I’m having that feeling. Um, and people are inherently often not very good at recognizing the feeling that they’re having.
Paul: Right.
Kate: So it can be good to stop yourself in that moment. If, if you know that you can feel it rising, go, “Right, I’m gonna go and stand in the toilet.” You know, just go and isolate yourself and go, “What is the feeling?” So we- we’re really good at saying, “Oh, I’m really cross.”
Paul: Mm.
Kate: Are you cross though? Or do you feel disappointed and let down by that person?
Oh, that’s
Paul: a great question.
Kate: You know, or do you feel that they just undermined you, or do you feel disrespected? That’s different to cross. Yeah. But your automatic thing is- Yeah … “Well, I’m cross.”
Paul: Yeah.
Kate: So if you [00:18:00] put yourself in a situation where you go, “Okay, Paul, have a word. I’m feeling like I’m gonna be cross now.
Am I cross? What’s underneath?”
Paul: Yeah.
Kate: So anger is the thing that we often see in other humans. It’s, we read anger quickly- Yeah … in another person. Yeah. But anger is like the banner under which are squillions of other feelings. Yeah. So if you can stop yourself and recognize, actually- I do feel cross, but under that feeling cross is a bit disappointed that you underestimated me there, and actually I feel a bit sad that you did that.
So it’s presenting itself as me feeling cross, but really I feel other emotions- Yeah … other than that. And that deescalates often that height of- Yeah … “Ar, I’m gonna-” … you know, “I’m gonna burst,” to it’s like letting some air out of the balloon.
Paul: Yeah.
Kate: And, and, and if you can learn to do [00:19:00] that, you know, that’s what we try and teach young people, if you can learn to deflate the balloon, recognize it’s there, recognize what is it, what really is it, then you in charge of that emotion then rather than it being in charge of you.
Paul: Yeah. Now, uh, throughout this part of the conversation, we’ve talked about what I think I would call negative or destructive-
Kate: Mm …
Paul: emotions. I, I, I think they’re part of life, so to call them destructive is probably- Yeah … counterintuitive.
I don’t know th- necessarily that’s correct. How can we make someone … Is, uh, you’ve, we’ve talked about diffusing tension.
Kate: Mm.
Paul: But how can we go onto the front foot? How can we make people feel valued?
Kate: I guess it’s, it’s seeing any opportunity to recognize the experience of that other person. So, um, you know, there might be moments where, uh, which I’m sure, I’m sure you experience, where, say, you’re, [00:20:00] you’re taking a photograph of somebody who they do want a photograph of themselves, but they’re finding the process w- a bit excruciating, and they feel vulnerable, and all of their insecurities are suddenly, like, literally on their skin right there.
They’re feeling, “This is, I’m, all the bits of me are under a spotlight,” in a way that people that don’t enjoy that don’t put themselves in those situations on purpose.
Paul: Yeah.
Kate: Um, and people that do, you know, do, and that’s great, but I guess what I will do when I see … It’s, it’s a really brave thing to go and have counseling or coaching- Yeah
or whatever it is because you are making yourself vulnerable. Yeah. And human beings do everything to avoid that. Um, so in that moment where you have someone and you want to make it better for them, and I’m sure that you have, you’ve learnt lots of strategies over the years that you’ve been doing your job to try and make someone feel more [00:21:00] comfortable in that moment.
And we do the same. You know, if, if I’m working with someone, I can see they’re, physically they can’t sit still. It is so uncomfortable for them. So I will try to use their body language as my cue to recognizing that person needs something more in this moment. So I would try and say, “I recognize that this might be a moment that you’re not enjoying.”
And they’re like… And the look of relief is like, “You, you absolutely bet I’m not.” You know, so often people say, “Yeah, I’m really not enjoying this. I, I want to be here, and I want to talk about it, but I’m not enjoying it.” Um, as soon as you name it and it’s out there, you can see they’re like, “Okay, I feel a bit better about this now because you recognize my fear.”
And so if we can recognize another person’s fear, [00:22:00] uh, and name it, and be right, and more often than not, I think, you know, we were ta- talking before we started this about intuition and- Mm … you know, being intuitive about, um, the people that you’re photographing. And, and I think that spotting the moment where we…
It’s e- it’s often easy to pick up how someone’s feeling ’cause they’re making us feel it, too.
Paul: That’s interesting.
Kate: You know, so if someone’s feeling awkward, it, they make you feel awkward. Even if you, it’s not a feeling that originated with you, but you’re, you’re picking it up from them. So it’s easy to take a joyful photo of somebody who is genuinely joyful because they’re making you feel joyful.
Equally, somebody who is feeling really uncomfortable and, um ah, is is not able to, [00:23:00] to, um, behave in the way that they think you want them to, you know, na- naming it. And, you know, sometimes I will say to clients, um Like, to give you an example, uh, if I had older clients who are much older than me, I will name a- as soon as we get going that that’s a thing in the room, that I’m 20 years younger than you, so this probably feels weird working with someone, talking about your relationship when, what do you know?
You’re 20 years younger than me. Now, if I feel that, then I will call it, and you can see them automatically be like, “Mm.” They don’t necessarily say it, but you can see them thinking, “Yeah, glad you, that’s, I, I’m glad you’ve brought it up because I feel that there’s a level of respect from you now, that yes, we do feel a little bit of that…”
It’s not tension, [00:24:00] but it’s a difference.
Paul: Yeah.
Kate: It, and, and I guess when you’re taking people’s photographs, you’re comfortable ’cause it’s what you do. But, but for them, like recognizing that what the tension is for them and, and naming it, people much rather you do that than you try and jolly them along and pretend it’s all okay.
‘Cause that, that, that can be, especially if you were, if you’re working in the way that I do, i- the people don’t appreciate that because you’re just papering over the cracks. Obviously, you’re taking people’s photos. You’re not counseling them.
Paul: Ah,
Kate: well,
Paul: there were days in here when I’m about to stop people telling me stuff.
Uh, yeah, no, people do offload. I think that, I think there’s a, there’s a couple of different threads, and I don’t really know which way to jump. Let’s jump with language first, um, which is that I was always taught, don’t talk about the thing you don’t want people to feel. So [00:25:00] if they’re feeling awkward, I’d never talk about them being awkward.
I draw them away from it, because the minute you go, y- or the minute… I mean, I’ve never used this language, but let’s be blatant. Mm. The minute you say, “You look awkward”-
Kate: Yeah …
Paul: you’ve just made it worse.
Kate: Yeah.
Paul: I can’t do that. So, so as a photographer, I’ve gotta pull, I’ve gotta, so we use lang- or I use language anyway, and I’m kinda trying to learn that what you’re saying is really interesting ’cause it’s counter what I’ve learned.
Kate: Yeah. So, but what’s interesting about you said, what you just said, was, “You look awkward.” So thinking about how you could still say, “You look awkward”, without saying that sentence. So, so if it, so if it was me, if I was, if you, if I was taking that person’s photo and I can see they look awkward, in exactly the same way as someone in the counseling room is, you know, fidgeting with their clothes and shuffling and, and looking awkward, I would rather than say, “You look awkward,” I [00:26:00] would say, “You know, this can feel like a really awkward situation.”
Paul: So I’d, I see, I don’t. I would, I would literally deflect. And, and I don’t mean deflect as in ignore it. I would change tack-
Kate: Yeah …
Paul: and watch. I, I read people. I’ve always loved people. Mm. I’m curious, hence the podcast, you know?
Kate: Yeah.
Paul: I love being around people. I guess if I wasn’t like that, I think I would find it harder.
But I’ve just, I’ve always been taught you never mention the word you don’t want someone to feel, sad, awkward, whatever it
Kate: is. It’s interesting, that, ’cause then we’re on different pages- Mm … in, from that respect.
Paul: I suspect you’re far more skilled. I’m not- But, but- I’m kind of acknowledging that I’m learning
Kate: here
but it’s not, I guess it’s not about skill so much as you’re, what you’re trying to achieve in a photo- Mm, yeah … is different from what I’m t- trying to achieve helping someone to sort of unravel what’s going on for them. Yeah.
Paul: Yeah, there’s no depth to my job.
Kate: But
Paul: It’s very shallow. I think that’s
Kate: a little unfair.
Paul: I just want you to look good- … and go away having had a nice time. [00:27:00]
Kate: Well, uh, but I think, I th- surely in order to have had a nice time, the more understood by the person that is in that experience with you, the more understood you feel by them, the, the more likely you are to have had a nice time. So, so ag- uh, again, it’s, it’s, it’s not even, like you, you s- you said, uh, the second time you said it, you said, you know, “This could feel a bit awkward.”
Paul: Yes.
Kate: So, so still move it, I would still move it one away from that and make it like we are, we are doing this together, and you have recognized that that person feels awkward. So it’s about saying, “You know, lots of people find this quite awkward, and I totally get it.” And I’ll say that to people, “You are talking to me about your personal life, and essentially I’m a [00:28:00] stranger.”
On paper, that’s weird and awkward- Yeah … in the same way that you’re in my, you’re in a dark room with me, and I’ve got a camera, and I’m shining a light on you. You, you are in that moment- Yeah … with that person, and, uh, it’s a relief often to people that they f- they feel safer with you if their vulnerability feels safer with you if you have read what their vulnerability is.
And I feel like what you’re, what you’re saying your strategy is, is a bit like how you would deal with small children. When we recognize that small children are freaking out about something or ha- about to have a tantrum, the, the best solution to that is, is to divert their attention, isn’t it? And go, “Well, we’re not gonna concentrate on the fact that you’re not allowed another biscuit.
We’re gonna go and look at the birds on the bird table. We’re go- I’m gonna distract you away from- Yeah … the thing that I know that you’re [00:29:00] feeling.” So I can see that a lot of the time that probably works. Uh, so I’m, I’m not saying, you know, the way I would do it- … is right, and the way you do it is wrong.
Paul: No, I’m just thinking I’ve got another arrow in my quiver.
You do. I’m just thinking there’s another technique I’ve not learned.
Kate: It d- that it’s, it works when you’re in the situations that I’m in with people. I find, I find calling it out in a way that feels okay. So I will often say, if somebody’s, um… They appear angry, but you can tell that actually they feel, um, they’re really disappointed- Mm
by their partner’s behavior- Yeah … for instance. You know, that, that actually recognizing, “You know, I’m wondering if you feel really disappointed by this situation.” Um, that rather than you could see that as, oh, that’s a bit gloomy, you know, pointing out that they’re disappointed, but, [00:30:00] but that’s where they are.
Mm. So you might as well go with the thing that is happening in the
Paul: room. Yeah. I d- I think there is… I mean, there is a difference in the, on the whole- What I’m after is, uh, I suppose, uh, I mean, there’s a million ways to word it, I’m after a, a, a nice afternoon out, right?
Kate: Yeah, of course.
Paul: I don’t necessarily… I do, some- sometimes we dig very deep.
Mm. Mm-hmm. And I’ve had, you know, people crying here, and get cross with life in here, and explain things to us- Mm … that have happened to them. And I think there’s that adrenaline moment that people- Mm … have when they come in. They’re exposed. I mean- Sure … there’s lots, in our worlds, there’s lots of commonality.
Kate: Yeah.
Paul: But the end goals are different. I’m not trying to fix or necessarily help, I’m certainly not trying to get inside someone’s head.
Kate: Mm.
Paul: Now, sometimes photography is very cathartic, and going through the process of being photographed, I know this ’cause we get the letters back-
Kate: Yeah …
Paul: is the most liberating s-
Kate: Yeah
Paul: thing someone’s done, or it gives them confidence, or they never believed they could enjoy it, [00:31:00] or look like that, or a million- Yeah … other very positive outcomes, but they’re not your world.
Kate: Mm.
Paul: And so the language we use, I mean, yeah, I like the way you say I treat my clients like children. Thank you for that, Katie.
Yeah. Uh, I’ll be picking up on that later. Um, it’s not really that. It’s more just I have an hour and a half, and it’s, I don’t have next week or the week after. Mm. No. I’m not developing anything. It’s a moment, isn’t it? I have an hour and a half, and you’ve, you’ve been a client of mine for a long time, so you know this is how I work.
I’ve tried to make sure that all of the memories attached are positive. That’s actually my job-
Kate: Yeah …
Paul: is as a portrait photographer, as opposed to a fashion or commercial photographer, because those memories are saleable, a purely business operation here, you know? I- Yeah … I generally want people to have a nice time because I like my clients- Yeah
and I like them to have a nice time, and that’s how I came into the industry. But I’m also well-tuned to the fact that if they have positive memories, they will buy them. Yeah. If they have a negative experience- Yeah … they won’t. It doesn’t matter how good the picture is. [00:32:00] Yeah. If what they attach to that piece of paper or that piece of acrylic or whatever it is on the wall is not a completely positive experience, they won’t wanna buy it.
Mm. Because they’ll read it. They’ll read, they, they, they see things in that picture that I can’t possibly see. Yeah. They see themselves vulnerable or uncomfortable or a million other things, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Or it was the end of a relationship, or whatever it is, they see stuff in that picture that I cannot possibly see.
So my job is to try and make sure that for an hour and a half or two hours, the whole experience is uplifting and a positive one. Mm. And I suspect that’s where the fracture between the two types of language is.
Kate: Yeah. And I guess, I guess I, I would still, I would still hold onto that idea of- Naming the feeling that’s in the room is gonna contribute to the positive experience, even if the feeling isn’t positive.
Because it’s… So if we put it in a different context, like going to the [00:33:00] doctor and, um, you are really anxious about h- having, having a treatment done to you or, or, uh, telling them your symptoms because maybe they might s- sort of get worried and, you know, immediately send you to hospital. What… So, so going into that doctor’s room, uh, if the doctor says, “I can see that you’re anxious about this conversation”- Yeah
um, that’s helpful-
Paul: Yeah …
Kate: because, yes, I blooming am anxious, actually. So that makes me feel better that you recognize my an- my anxiety. Because then the next step is, “Okay, we’ve got that. We, we recognize that. You feel anxious about me taking your, um, photo.” Um, so my approach would be, “Is there anything, is there anything else that you feel anxious about?”
Whilst we’re- Yeah … whilst we’re recognizing. No, I [00:34:00] don’t mean like- I could be here all day … I don’t mean like in the rest of your life, but I mean, like, um, you know, are you, uh, anxious that I’m gonna take a f- photo and you won’t be able to say, “I don’t like that one, can you delete it?” Like, do you know what I mean?
That, that- Yeah,
Paul: I, I get that. I think- I think we, I think actually me and you would agree pretty much on 99.9% of this. It’s just, you know, I would get ahead of that.
Kate: Yeah.
Paul: One of the things we do here, for instance, is I say most of the people who are insecure about being photographed are women, more than men.
Kate: Mm.
Paul: Men don’t really wanna be photographed-
Kate: Mm …
Paul: but they’re not insecure about it. Mm. They just don’t wanna be here.
Kate: Yeah.
Paul: Women, on the other hand, are much more body and image conscious. And you can, and you can see that in, in the world of makeup and hair and clothing. You know what I mean?
Kate: Yeah.
Paul: I, I’m not, I’m not being gender specific.
Kate: Yeah. It just, that’s how it
Paul: is. There are more women’s shops out on the high street than there are men’s. Yeah, sure. I mean, that’s life, right? I think men don’t wanna be here, but women are worried about being here.
Kate: Mm, mm.
Paul: [00:35:00] And there are different ways of trying to get round that. But mostly it’s about the fact that for us here, Sarah does the selections, I don’t.
Mm, mm. And that’s always been a huge and very fast way of bypassing that problem. People say, “What happens if I don’t like the… What happens, or, you know, how does the selection work? Will you get rid of any pictures I don’t like?” And I say, “I don’t get rid of any. Sarah does it.” She does it because she’s not got the biases that I have as a photographer.
Kate: Mm, mm.
Paul: Photographers are biased. You know, if I like you, I’ll think all your pictures are good, even though I’ve made you look an odd shape or whatever. Yeah, yeah. I just like you, and I like- Yeah … you know, I like people. That’s interesting. So Sarah does it, and we’ve, I’ve always had-
Kate: That’s very interesting
yeah,
Paul: she does all the selections because she’s, uh, she’s younger than I am, but she’s female of an age. Yeah,
Kate: yeah.
Paul: And when she looks at the pictures, she looks at them through that lens. Um, I look at the picture as a photographer and as a bloke. You know, I’ve got- Yeah … those two factors that I’m looking at it as.
Kate: Yeah.
Paul: Sarah looks at it not as a photographer and [00:36:00] as a woman.
Kate: Yeah. A
Paul: very different selection.
Kate: Yeah,
Paul: that’s very interesting. And so it, it means I have to be, if I try and put an image back in that Sarah said no to, I better understand
Kate: why.
Paul: Why. Sometimes it’s because I hit the limit, and she’s just, “You can’t have any more.”
It just, you’ve had, there are too many pictures, we can’t show them, all of them. That’s a, that’s a nice place.
Kate: That is interesting, isn’t it? ‘Cause it, it, it, that’s, I guess- The perspect- the perspectives, and that’s what I talk to people a lot about in their relationships is, is perspective. So often the reason two people don’t get on is because they don’t share the same perspective, and until they make an effort to s- to see the situation from the other person’s perspective, then they’ll- Mm
they’re likely always to experience conflict. And so, so that’s an interesting dynamic between the two of you that you can, that you can, um, respect one another’s [00:37:00] perspectives, and you recognize how different they are a- and, and how that actually is helpful in the way that you work together.
Paul: Oh, it’s massively helpful.
Kate: Yeah, that’s
Paul: interesting. But it was the hardest thing I ever did in the business- I bet … was to let go of my part of the creative process. But I mean, there are a couple of things in our favor, not least of which is Sarah is a brand manager. That was her background-
Kate: Mm …
Paul: marketing manager, brand manager, and so she manages that process as a brand manager And so every image goes through not just whether to her as a woman, to her as my wife- Mm
who knows me, whether an image gets passes muster, but also as a brand manager, is it on brand?
Kate: Yeah, yeah.
Paul: So she runs it as that as well. And of course, she’s a much better brand manager than I am.
Kate: Yeah.
Paul: I’m too close. I’m way too close to the images. So that’s why it’s worked. I w- I’m not s- I’ve never said e- everyone should do this ‘Cause it could cause you permanent and ir-
irreparable damage to your relationships.
Kate: Yeah.
Paul: It could do. [00:38:00]
Kate: Yeah.
Paul: For me, it hasn’t. For me, it was liberating. It took a load of work off my plate that I found difficult and I was not very good at, and it put it onto somebody else’s plate, who also has to spend a lot of time doing it, s- sorry, Sarah, uh, but is e- exceptionally good at it.
Kate: And that’s a real level of trust, professional as well as personal, isn’t it? You know, you’re trusting her- Yeah, I,
Paul: I think the trust developed. I don’t think it was in- Yeah … I think the first, probably the first year, if I’m being honest-
Kate: Mm, mm …
Paul: was hard, and I checked everything.
Kate: I bet, yeah.
Paul: Um, now I very rarely go back to the outtakes.
We keep everything, I never delete anything, but I never go back.
Kate: Mm.
Paul: A question for you.
Kate: Yes.
Paul: Obviously, uh, as a portrait photographer, a big chunk of my business is family photography, and by family, I usually mean younger children and their young mum. Mm. Sometimes what happens, and I, and I know this because we went on a family shoot, it’s very stressful-
Kate: Mm
Paul: getting a family out the [00:39:00] door and into a studio on time and looking clean and tidy. By the time people arrive here, no matter what family they are and how relaxed they are normally, I have inadvertently injected stress- Yeah … into their day. It’s the last thing I want. What language and what ideas are there for helping not just take the heat out of that, but put that family into, into a mode where they are completely trusting that actually the way they’re gonna be portrayed is as a happy, joyous family- Yeah
just the way they should be?
Kate: Yeah, yeah. Just the way they are for just an hour on a Saturday afternoon. Hour and a
Paul: half. It’s an hour and a half, yeah.
Kate: Um- I think that often expectations are, like, right at the root of those kinds of situations, aren’t they? Like, what, what… A- as a mum myself, having had my family [00:40:00] photographed, and no one ever, apart from me, wants to have it done, and they’re doing it to keep me happy.
Yeah. So my ex- so I would come with expectations of, um, this is gonna be fun, um, even though I know nobody else in my family wants to be doing this, but this is gonna be fun, so I’m gonna enjoy myself, and my expectation is that you guys know that this is important to me, so I’m expecting you to basically show up and be polite and do whatever Paul tells you to do, basically.
Um, same for my husband, really. I don’t know why I’m, like, making it sound
Paul: like it’s gonna be different for him. I think it’s all three boys
Kate: in your world today. Yeah, I think he’s like, “Uh, hmm.” Um, so I think each person comes with their own expectations, don’t they? Yeah. So, you know, your, the kids, teenage kids maybe are likely to think, “Well, this is a bit of my life I’m not [00:41:00] getting back.
I’m not gonna enjoy this. Um, you know, this wasn’t my idea. Um, I’m not gonna like the photos anyway because I hate my haircut,” or, you know, whatever. That, that everybody walks into any situation, really, don’t they, with expectations, and I guess for you as the person, you’re about to meet those expectations or not.
And so, um, that recognizing what is it that these people want to get out of this moment, and as you’ve, you know, so eloquently put, it is a moment where you, somebody wants to feel good about themselves and recognize themselves in the photo and, um, and feel joyful and, and positive and that it was a lovely thing to do in the end.
I’m sure when people leave, they’re, they feel differently to when they came in [00:42:00] feeling, you know, that sort of, um, anticipation about what’s gonna happen and, um, if they’re gonna feel comfortable or if they’re gonna like their photo. So I, I would say that those moments are- Are worth recognizing. I’m sort of back to that again, I suppose, aren’t I, of what are you, what are you expecting of, of this afternoon?
It’s kind of like when I arrived with my friends and we brought a bottle of champagne with us. The expectations were fairly clear. Yeah. We’re gonna have a good time- Yeah … and you’re gonna capture it, and, uh, I s- I’m making an assumption that that was straightforward, but, but I think that i- it was clear to you what our expectations were.
Oh, I clung on for
Paul: dear life. That’s all I did. I
Kate: clung on. You were very brave, I grant it to you. I clung on and I, and I rode, I rode the rodeo, and I just … Yeah, yeah. And at the end of it, they
Paul: had
to mop me [00:43:00] down. You know, it was-
Kate: I can only apologize. I
Paul: think, I think what I’m exploring is that there’s a, there’s, there’s a couple of different interesting aspects of family photography. You have the, the stressor points- Yeah … generally children.
Kate: Yeah.
Paul: Or at least your own perception … Well, no. Actually, your desire for others to perceive your children in a particular way.
It’s actually that, I think. Yes,
Kate: now that’s interesting, isn’t it?
Paul: Uh, and then extend that out, and it’s an aspirational thing, is how do I, not as a photographer-
Kate: Mm …
Paul: but as the host of a show-
Kate: Mm …
Paul: which is slightly different, how do I manage that hour and a half? What … Are there any tips and tricks I can use that when they leave, I’ve met those aspirations, and I’ve l- led them through a process where they feel that I’ve recognized the joy in their family [00:44:00] unit?
Kate: That’s hard to put your finger on, isn’t it? Mm. Because it’s a- It’s not a th- it’s not necessarily a thing that you do No It’s a, it’s a moment that you create, isn’t it? It, it’s making me think of, um Uh, so I’ll often talk to, uh, couples or families a- about, um, you’ve probably heard of like cognitive behavioral therapy Yeah So that simple idea of, of that, of CBT is the way that you behave makes me have thoughts and feelings Yeah I then respond to my thoughts and feelings by putting out some behavior.
So I’m reading your behavior, it’s making me have my thoughts and feelings, so then I behave, and then you observe my behavior Yeah So unless you tell me what your thoughts and feelings are, all [00:45:00] I’m going on is to observe your behavior and vice versa. So, so the thoughts and feelings become assumed-
Paul: Yeah
Kate: don’t they? And I, I imagine that when you’ve got a family in the studio, you’re doing that like on absolute megaphone levels, in that you are, y- especially as you’re looking through a camera, you are, all, all you have to have got to work on is observing everyone’s behavior. So when you look through that, when you look through that, is it a viewfinder?
It is a viewfinder. God. Well done, me. When you look- Top of the class. When you look through the viewfinder- Talking straight to the photographers out there … I mean they’re impressed, aren’t they? They are. I know. Yeah.
Paul: I can feel it
Kate: now. Yeah, yeah. Um, you are intensely observing- Mm-hmm … their behavior, and [00:46:00] you’re guessing at their thoughts and feelings
Paul: Ooh
Kate: Because unless they say, “I’m having such a lovely time.
This is absolutely hilarious. Isn’t this fun? I’m, I’m so happy.” And I guess some people do go, “I’m so happy you’re taking this photo of my newborn baby.” They’re, they’re very clear about their, their, what they’re thinking and how they’re feeling. But generally, we, we don’t share our thoughts and feelings as a rule.
We just share our behavior, which is observed by the other person. So it’s quite an intense environment in which you’re doing that, isn’t it? In, in the same way that I sit opposite to people who’ve come to talk about their relationship, and they don’t need to say a word. I can tell so much about what’s going on and who’s the person in the wrong, ’cause often they’ve been brought to be told off by the, by the relationship person because, you know, you did [00:47:00] something wrong, so I’m dragging you along here to get told off by that lady.
You can tell that that’s- Yeah … what’s going on before they’ve even said why they’re there. So that observed behavior is such a gem of a moment But the caution is that, that sometimes we, we form an opinion of what someone’s thoughts and feelings are based on just their behavior.
Paul: Hmm.
Kate: And there are a lot of assumptions going on there.
Yeah. And, and, and often it’s easy to assume the wrong thing and to misunderstand. Yeah. You know, it’s like when lots of people say, “Actually, I’m really shy.”
Paul: Yeah. ”
Kate: But I’m a mega famous-
Paul: Yeah …
Kate: actress, but really, actually, I’m really shy and I’m, and I only feel… You read my behavior, and my behavior is me being hilarious- Hmm[00:48:00]
you know, on stage. But actually, normally, most of the time, I don’t, I’m not feeling confident.” And I g- and I guess maybe what would, would also be interesting, if we’re talking about observed behavior, you know, you are intensely observing the behavior of the people that you’re photographing, um, in order to get the best photograph.
Equally, they are intensely observing you In that they are, they are reading your face- Yeah … subconsciously to see whether you go, whether across your face comes a, what you were describing earlier, oh, hairs on the back of my neck, that is an absolutely- Yeah … brilliant photo I’ve just taken. I suspect people want to be able to read some- something back from you- Yeah, yeah
that says, “Oh, okay, this, this, they feel like they’re taking some nice pictures [00:49:00] of us.” Because you’re so intensely insecure in that moment, however confident you are, you are … You want to like what the end product looks like. Yeah. You want to feel like, “Oh, that’s me, and I feel nice about myself, and that makes me feel happy looking at that photo.”
Yeah. And the only way you can, you know, that there’s lots of observed behavior going on, isn’t there? Tons. That, that they’re looking at you for that- Yeah … you know, moment of that you feel that this is going well.
Paul: It’s, it’s a combination of affirmation and aspiration-
Kate: Mm …
Paul: I think.
Kate: Mm.
Paul: I had a lovely client in the other day.
He, a couple, uh, whose wedding is in however long away.
Kate: 2050.
Paul: Probably, yeah. When we can have more than three people than your grandma, I think. Um, and he wasn’t certain about doing an engagement shoot, but we’d got an engagement shoot in. Mm. And at the end of the whole process, he, he sat here with Michelle [00:50:00] having seen his pictures, and I’d come back down, and I’d loved it.
I, I had so enjoyed their company, but I do. Mm. I, I really value the time I have taking pictures. It’s like the greatest gift on earth.
Kate: Yeah.
Paul: But he said to Michelle something that was interesting. It was, and it was a wording that I hadn’t heard before. He said, “I didn’t know how I was gonna feel about it, but at the end of this process, I’m so pleased that Paul loved taking our pictures.”
That’s an interesting series of words, because I’d come down, and I genuinely, I’d loved working with them. I’d loved the pictures. I’d en- I’d come and endorsed the pictures on the screen, and he said, “I’m so happy now that Paul loved taking our pictures.” Isn’t that an interesting turn of phrase?
Kate: That is really- Mm
really interest… Of all the things you could say-
Paul: Right
Kate: Saying that. Oh, that’s very interesting, isn’t it?
Paul: Yeah, yeah, curious, huh?
Kate: Yeah. That’s very… And what did you say?
Paul: It was, he said it to Michelle, not to me.
Kate: Oh, okay. Okay.
Paul: I got an email back the day after the [00:51:00] shoot that said, “We had a right laugh. Say thanks to Paul.”
That was what I got back from him. Uh, and they’re- No, that’s really good … they’re, they’re just a lovely couple. And I genuinely, you know, beautiful people, um, perfect clients for us. They loved every second of it- And, and isn’t that- … and I loved it …
Kate: interesting that they were clearly very much observing your behavior?
Paul: Yes.
Kate: And that was obviously important to him. I’m only gonna enjoy this if I think you’re, you’re enjoying it, then that’s okay with me.
Paul: I don’t even know if he went in it… I don’t even know if it was that way round. I think he may have surprised himself- Yeah … or I may have surprised. I don’t know. I’ve, I’ve not talked to him about it- Yeah
’cause obviously this was a message from late- Yeah, and
Kate: that’s a bit of a deep- … to Michelle … can we have a follow-up?
Paul: Yeah. Can we have a chat about this? About the comment that you made. I think we may, may, may need a beer.
Kate: But you don’t know. You know, for some people, they only enjoy an experience if the other person they’re sharing it with does too.
Paul: Well, it’s like shared laughter, watching a comedy, isn’t it? Yeah. You know, there’s lots of evidence that going to a comedy club enriches the experience vastly as opposed to watching it on your own.
Kate: Yeah.
Paul: That’s why laughter tracks are on the telly.
Kate: [00:52:00] Yeah.
Paul: You want to feel like you’re part of something. Yeah.
Kate: Or I guess, you know, when somebody cooks you something. You know, if, if you go to a restaurant, the joy maybe for the chef is in you enjoying-
Paul: Yeah …
Kate: their food. Um, but that’s interesting that for him it was- That you, yeah, there’s probably lots of deep and interesting… That’s quite interesting I just thought it’s, it’s
Paul: a little curious, and I was flattered by it, um, as well as pleased for them- Yeah
because it means that the memories that we created for them in the whole process are very positive, and that’s my job.
Kate: But they’re often, uh, precious. They are precious moments- Yes … aren’t they, to people? Yes. That I can be sure that I can look at any photos you’ve ever taken of me or my family and, and it’s a precious moment to me because it, uh, that’s why I’ve wanted the photo, because I’ve wanted to capture that moment in time, whatever the moment is about.
I think w- like, talking about synergies between what, what you’re doing and, and what, and what I [00:53:00] do, when, and it’s all about relationships- Yeah … and it’s all about communica- communication. But, and the approach, I think your approach is similar to mine, and not all, I would say, not all people that do my job come from this place, unfortunately.
Um, is if I was to say, what’s the one thing that I, I would hope that everybody that leaves a session with me, would… The first, the thing that would be most important for me that they would say is that, that I was kind.
Paul: Yeah.
Kate: And because I think out of kindness comes good things. Yeah. And if you’re not being kind in that moment with those people, then d- you don’t have the moment.
Paul: Yeah.
Kate: And, and I guess that’s same for you- Oh, yeah … as it is, it is for me. Yeah, it’s, yeah. You know, that it’s, it’s got to be that you are being kind to that person [00:54:00] in whatever way they need you to be kind in that moment, whether it’s, um, trying to get a shot that doesn’t get their double chins in. Or whether it’s a moment where I will try and find something positive in a situation where actually, you know, quite a lot of things are going horribly wrong.
It’s, I feel like it’s my obligation to be kind in that moment and try and find a little, tiny thread of something that can be perceived as positive. It’s,
Paul: what I love about this conversation, and I’m so, so thrilled to have it, is that you use slightly different words to me, but the The agenda is identical.
I would say to someone, “I will always find something I really like about you.” I like people naturally. Mm-mm. I’m one of … I’m wired that way. I’ll like them first and learn they’re morons later, you
Kate: know? Yeah, yeah.
Paul: That comes afterwards. And,
Kate: yeah, you don’t have to be their friend and- No … you’ve learned that they were a moron, and
Paul: [00:55:00] that’s okay.
Yeah, I d- sometimes
Kate: you find that out. Yeah.
Paul: But I always like someone, and I will always, I, to take a picture of someone that has meaning, and I don’t mean anything deep in that. No. I mean, the engagement of that person with my camera, which is me, right? You see- Yeah,
Kate: yeah … the
Paul: camera’s there. I don’t care whether they connect with the camera.
I’ve got to get them to connect with me, and then everybody else who views that picture later, that’s what they’ll see. You’ve got to like that person
Kate: Yeah …
Paul: because everything about the body language involved, if you don’t like someone, how are they gonna look back at the camera like they like the viewer of that picture ultimately?
Kate: Yeah.
Paul: You know, I’m, I’m, I’m invisible. You, I take the picture and then I step away, like, ah, it’s gone. The next person to see that picture is a viewer who wasn’t there- Mm … Sarah- Mm … and then onwards the family. The, um, only I was there. Only I remember what it felt like to be nose to nose with that person, looking at them directly in their eyes.
Kate: Well, you have the context, don’t you? Yeah. And I think that’s, so I can get, I can get, uh, somebody send me an email and say, “I want to [00:56:00] come see you, and this is why.” And they’ll, they’ll give you the skeleton of, in the same way that someone would say, “You know, we want to come have a family photo shoot.” You know, you get, you, you need the context.
So the context brings alive, um, or, or puts, or puts the, puts the detail into that moment, doesn’t it? So, so i- interesting thought, I guess, of if you showed a photo and you go, “Right, that’s an award-winning photo. Now let me tell you the story.”
Paul: Yeah.
Kate: So then more to know and understand about, about that moment that only, unless you share the story with other people, only you know.
Paul: But the challenge as a photographer is that, and, and one of the, uh, chairs of judges said this earlier in the year when I was judging for the SWPP, it’s not the viewer’s fault if they don’t get the story you’re trying to tell.
Kate: Mm.
Paul: As a photographer, you have to [00:57:00] tell whatever the story is in your image.
And it won’t always be the, the story you think you’re telling, but it needs to be something. But you, um, I, when I’m teaching photographers, I tell them to get a great picture, you have to fall in love with your subject. Mm. Momentarily, briefly. It’s nothing sordid. It’s simply that to, as a portrait photographer-
Kate: Mm
Paul: not a fashion photographer. I keep coming back to the same thing. Yeah. A fashion photographer, uh, yeah. Yeah, it’s a dress. They’re models, right? That’s their job.
Kate: Yeah, yeah. Make it look good, honey.
Paul: That’s right. Every time you hit the button, a different pose. And then you show the pictures to your client, not the models.
Kate: Yeah.
Paul: No wonder models are insecure.
Kate: Yeah.
Paul: Nobody loves them.
Kate: Right.
Paul: You know?
Kate: Yeah.
Paul: But portrait photography, you have, I feel, you have to, I, I take it to a possibly its logical extreme. I have to fall in love with that person- Yeah … in some manner.
Kate: Yeah.
Paul: Whether it’s their intellect, their sense of humor, their shape, their face, their eyes, their hair.
Who cares?
Kate: Mm.
Paul: There’s got to be something for me, and I’ll always find something. I will always find something. Sometimes it’s a story they tell, I’ll fall in
Kate: love with that. And that’s a, that’s, that’s a, a, [00:58:00] a need to form a quick relationship- Yeah … isn’t it, with-
Paul: 60 seconds or
Kate: less- … the moment … is what they
Paul: say,
Kate: isn’t it, one of those?
Yeah. It’s interesting. It-
Paul: I
Kate: know. And I guess you could be technically very clever at taking a photo of something, but capturing, as you say, a story in a person is a skill that you can go to university and learn everything you like about photography, but you can either do that or you can’t. In the same way that- Yeah
talking to people about their relationships, some people have got, you know, a million more degrees than me, but, but the way that they, you know, if they don’t, if they’re not working from kindness, those degrees aren’t worth a lot- Yeah … in my opinion.
Paul: But I, but I knew, and again, back to the, I knew this would be a lovely conversation to have on a podcast, ’cause you are one of those, you are the lo- a lovely combination of smart.
You [00:59:00] like, you generally like, seem to like people. You, and you, and- I
Kate: love
Paul: people,
Kate: yeah …
Paul: and, and dear Lord, you can talk.
Kate: Absolutely. So me,
Paul: me and you. Two. So, and I, I think, yeah, yeah, and I, I wonder what would be nice, and, uh, this is not for this podcast. It would be lovely to find out whether you can actually learn that skill or whether it’s something that you are born with, and I, that’s a, for a different day I think, ’cause we could be here for-
Kate: We could be here for ages.
Paul: Well, if we answer that question, we could also market it. You know, it’d be worth a fortune.
Kate: I think you can, you can teach, you can teach someone how to, uh, have empathy for another person.
Paul: Ooh, can you?
Kate: Yeah. And, and, and, and that, that is- If that’s as close as you can get, I would say, to, um, being able to help somebody be better at working with other people- Interesting
and, and needing to be, you know, [01:00:00] needing to have that touch that, that you’ve been describing. Let’s see.
Paul: See, I’m not sure I’ve got empathy.
Kate: D- of… You couldn’t- I- You couldn’t do your job, the job that you do, I would say you couldn’t do it if you didn’t, uh, have empathy. You absolutely do- I don’t think I
because if you didn’t have… So empathy- I
Paul: just
Kate: like people … but, but so, so, like, em- there’s empathy and sympathy, isn’t there? So if you’ve, uh, feeling sympathetic for someone is different to feeling empathy. So when you’re, you know, you feel sorry for someone when you feel sympathy. “Oh, poor you, that’s, you know, that’s rubbish.”
But to, to feel empathy for someone is you are, you doing that all the time because you’ve already described that. When you look through the lens at someone and you can sense that they’re anxious- Oh,
Paul: I see. Yes. That’s,
Kate: yeah … you are feeling their anxiety. Yeah. You’re stepping in their shoes of anxiety, so you’re thinking, “Oh, I recogni- I [01:01:00] empathize with their feeling.
I’m gonna try and alleviate. I’m gonna try and do something that makes them feel better.” So if you don’t have any empathy, you don’t spot that.
Paul: Right. Okay.
Kate: Or you don’t respond to it.
Paul: Right. Yeah. Maybe I just don’t understand the word empathy. It’s, maybe
Kate: it’s
Paul: just a fundamental- But
Kate: I don’t think many people, we say it and don’t really understand.
Paul: Yeah. I’m gonna go and explore.
And go and explore, I certainly will. For this final segment of the podcast, we’ve switched tacks slightly, and I told you earlier in the podcast that Kate Nicole is actually a client of mine. I photographed her family, and I photographed her with her friends, and it was that, this latter, this latter shoot that I wanted to talk a little bit about.
Prior to the podcast talking, we’d begun chatting about her love of photography and why having a photograph with her two [01:02:00] best friends, uh, to celebrate, I think it was her 40th birthday, was such a powerful thing to do and how much she loves the pictures that she now has hung. She has them hung, I think, in her downstairs loo, which the first time I heard a tale of someone doing this to me, I was most upset.
But actually, where better to hang a picture where you know your friends are gonna spend time looking at it? Uh, there is nowhere better than the downstairs loo. The shoot was a vibrant one. The shoot was a lively one. The shoot involved champagne and three very raucous, very funny, very smart, very energetic ladies.
Kate and her two friends came to the studio and just bowled us over. And we keep referring back to a shot where, uh, we, it sort of, uh, we use the phrase legs akimbo. I will post that image in the footnotes of this podcast so you can see just how [01:03:00] much, how much of a laugh we were all having and just what the shoot, um, was like, ’cause I think it explains quite a lot.
Anyway, we got to chatting about this shoot and why Kate loved it so, so much.
Kate: Probably bec- Well, I love a photo. I love, uh, the… I’m quite sentimental, so I like, I like having, uh, I like being able to look at a photo and, um- And know that I’ll always have it.
Paul: Yeah
Kate: So it might become a long time ago, but, but I’ll always have that moment, and I know that I’m gonna remember that moment, otherwise I won’t have chosen that photo to keep.
So it’s becomes then part of your memory, doesn’t it? But I, I think probably because I, um, I have two brothers, [01:04:00] and I have two sons, and I have a collection of godsons, and until recently, there was… I’ve got two, I’ve got three little nieces now, but that’s only in the last, like, two years. So I’ve had very much a male-dominated life.
Paul: Yeah.
Kate: And I love that. I was about to say I love men, but that comes across I like male company, you know. Yeah. And, and very happy to have two sons. I wouldn’t swap them for the world. Um, and l- love having two brothers. But that, that sisterhood thing, I’m very much wired as somebody who i- I like that female relationship.
Yeah. And I’m very close to my mum, and I’m lucky that she lives up the road and I see her every week, and that’s really important to me. And so I think th- that my female friendships are the sisters that I didn’t ever [01:05:00] have. So for me, that’s, it’s d- like for lots of people, your friends are the family that you choose, aren’t they?
They’re an- Yeah … extension of. Yeah. So it just seemed l- didn’t seem like an odd thing to do to me to, you know, I’ve got lots of pictures of my family, but I don’t have, um, you know, I don’t have lots of pictures of my friendships. You know, I take, like everybody, take photos on my phone. But to actually have a picture that would become something that when I’m an old lady, I can look a-
look back and go- You’ll
Paul: nev-
Kate: Oh, yeah.
Paul: You’ll never be an old lady. Age, age will catch you up, I’m sure. But The idea of you sitting doing embroidery with some fine bone chi- … fine bone china, I’m not convinced. It’s
Kate: not happening. No. So I think that’s probably why it, I, I’m, I find it interesting that other [01:06:00] people m- maybe would think that, that it’s, it’s an odd thing to do. But to me, it was, um, you know, they’re, they’re the people in my life that I would, I would do anything-
Paul: Yeah …
Kate: to, for them. Yeah. In the same that we’re all like that about our friends, aren’t we?
Um- But I recognize that there’s probably not, and this is a gender thing, and I think it probably, to be fair, probably is a gender thing, that there’s probably not many blokes who would say, “Mate, I’ve booked us in for a photo shoot on Saturday.”
Paul: I’m trying to think, I’m trying to think of whether I’ve ever done that.
Kate: You, you
Paul: know-
Kate: Uh … like-
Paul: I’m trying to… There must be one in my history, but I’m not convinced there is. I think you’re right. I don’t, I can’t think of one.
Kate: And I, I do, I guess it’s, I, I, I think that sisterhood is quite a talked about thing now, isn’t it? And I think that, um, that relationship is girls really look after one [01:07:00] another in a different way to…
Men absolutely do it as well, but in a different way. Yeah, you know, you’d be there for your friend if they- Oh, yeah … phoned you. Yeah, yeah. But, but, but sort of how you display your relationship and your friendship with- Yeah … your mates as a p- as a, as a man is maybe different to the way that, to the way that girls do it.
Uh, so my sons for instance, just I suspect, could be pretty confident to say they probably think it’s a bit weird- … that there’s a picture of me and my two friends in our downstairs toilet. You know, don’t think they’re surprised. Um, but they think, they, I would suspect, they just think that that’s, why would you do that?
Um, but that’s- No … kind of, I guess the nice thing about, that we all, you know, we all celebrate our relationships in different ways. And yeah, that [01:08:00] just, why, why, why wouldn’t you?
Paul: I loved it. I loved it. And like I said, I just clung on for dear life. That was one of those shoots. And there was shot after shot after shot that just make, even now make me smile looking at them.
Kate: Well, what, and, and it’s n- it, it’s becomes more than the photo, doesn’t it? Yes, yes. When, when we’re old ladies and we’re not doing crochet and we’re not drinking tea, we’re probably still drinking champagne hopefully, um, you know, that’s a do you remember? And o- of course we’re going to remember, because it was a nice opportunity to celebrate- Yeah
our friendship.
Paul: It was.
Kate: And when do you do… I, I’m not sure that you do that, like wedding days celebrate relationships, don’t they? But, uh- Mm … but your friendships, when do you, when do you really-
Paul: It’s curious, isn’t it? …
Kate: sort of-
Paul: I think the world would be a better place if we celebrated friendships a little bit more.
Kate: Uh, yeah.
Paul: In whatever form.
Kate: Absolutely. [01:09:00] Absolutely. Mm. It, it’s, there, I think they’re-
They’re unsung heroes are, are, are friendships a lot of the time, I think
Paul: I think so too. Thank you for your time. However, we got the last bit to do, which of course every guest, every guest on the Mastering Portrait Photography podcast is asked to nominate, and you’ve brought, I can see you digging in your handbag Oh, I always take too much out.
I thought you were gonna make- Is, is, has been asked to nominate a book that I can add to the photographer’s library we have here of books and publications that will inspire, bring enjoyment to, educate, or whatever it may be, photographers. What have you brought?
Kate: So I have brought, and it’s not a, it’s not a photography book-
Paul: Doesn’t
Kate: have to be
so I’m hoping that’s not what you’re after. No. No. Jolly good. Uh, s- this is called The Five Love Languages, and it is by a gentleman called, called Gary Chapman. And it is not a big book. It’s a really easy read. But I think every human [01:10:00] being should read this book.
Paul: Perfect.
Kate: Would you like me to tell you why?
Yes. Okay. Of course I would. I didn’t know if- The pregnant pause was me waiting. No. Tell me why.
Just checking. Um,
so the reason why is, um- This book talks about the fact that, uh, we all speak our own love language, i.e., the way that we feel loved by another person can be different from one another. So, uh, often you might find, well, well, more times than not, in a relationship, the way that one partner feels loved by the other person can be different f- to one another.
So if I give an example, um, I have to think of an example now. Um, I might feel, uh, loved by my [01:11:00] partner’s actions, so kind little things. “Oh, I bought you your favorite chocolate back from the garage. Um, I, I ran you a bath even though you didn’t ask me to.” So I might feel loved by those actions. Uh, somebody else might, uh, feel loved by their partner, uh, by them spending time with them.
So often what happens is we assume that our partner has the same love language as us. So we assume, “I ran you a bath. I bought you your favorite chocolate back. You should be feeling loved by me because I did those things that make, that I feel loved when you do that for me.” Yeah. “So therefore, I’m assuming that you kn- you feel loved.”
And then when you don’t read those actions as loving, y- you just don’t really notice them. “Hmm, I’m feeling a little bit naffed off that-” “… you didn’t read [01:12:00] my love language here.” And equally, we, I might find, well, you want spending time. If I don’t know that you want my time, and that’s what makes you feel loved if I give you my time, I might not know that.
So I might be merrily going off and doing all my different hobbies and this, that, and the other, and not actually be giving you much time. You are then in a sort of… It’s like having a piggy bank.
Paul: Yeah.
Kate: Like, there’s a deficit. I… You need to pay into my piggy bank, and I need to pay into yours, and if we’re not doing that, then- We might end up with a problem.
So everyone has a love language. Your children- Does- it doesn’t
Paul: help that you’re talking about different currencies going into each piggy bank.
Kate: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, and there’s one that, that… I haven’t read his book actually about children, but there’s love languages, um, in terms of sort of parenting as well, and it just makes so much sense to me.
We’re all busy creating relationships with all sorts of different people in our life, and it’s [01:13:00] easy to make the assumption that the way we feel loved is how they also feel loved, and that’s not necessarily the case. So this book helps you to, uh, identify your partner’s love language so you can be furiously paying into their piggy bank and they feel loved and cared for by you, and vice versa.
So-
Paul: You, you can be furiously multilingual.
Kate: Exactly. Who wouldn’t want to have a bit of that?
Paul: Perfect. I will post a link to that in the show notes below, obviously after I’ve ferreted out a copy for myself on Amazon. I will go and do that. Sorry, I… Amazon or one of the other many, many great bookshops- Many
out there. I will obviously go for the local bookshop first. Uh, but for all of you listening in the States and elsewhere, obviously Amazon is the single most available source of these things. Kate Nicole, it has been a glorious- … pleasure to spend time with you, as it always has been. Uh, but it’s nice to have recorded some of this stuff.
Um-
Kate: Oh, it’s
Paul: been a pleasure. [01:14:00] Oh, what an absolute joy it was to spend time talking with Kate Nicole. She’s such a font of knowledge and a supremely interesting human being. And I hope that the podcast… I hope that you’ve enjoyed the podcast as much as I enjoyed recording it, ’cause certainly the number of little nuggets I’ve taken away from that, uh, particular session are innumerable.
Uh, with a little bit of luck, we’ll get to interview Kate Nicole again in the future on various other aspects of relationships, both in the workplace and in the home, and of course in the photography studio to boot. Uh, just a quick reminder, the book she mentioned is called The Five Love Languages. It’s by a guy called Gary Chapman.
It’s readily available. It’s about a tenner, uh, new. I’ll go and have a look. Uh, I think it’s about four quid if you buy it secondhand. I suspect the postage will cost you more than the book. I will put a link to that in the show notes for this podcast. As always, if you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please do subscribe on [01:15:00] whatever is your preferred podcast platform.
There are tons of them out there, and we’re on nearly all of them as far as I can tell. Uh, if there’s anything you’d like to ask or any observations, then please do send us your comments. Uh, you can do so, uh, by emailing me at paul@paulwilkinsonphotography.co.uk. That’s paul@paulwilkinsonphotography.co.uk. In the meantime, of course, with everything that’s going on in the world, stay safe and whatever else, please be kind to yourselves.
Take care.